super penetrator 500 questions

[longhaireddwb]

My W58 came off the roof pushup pole one time too many and its time to replace it. Been looking at the SPT 500. Had a few questions for the antenna pros on this site. Ideas I've had. Would like to know if what I'm thinking will work or is correct. I'm not a person with lots of antenna knowledge. I know how to put it in the air and how to tune for the best SWR with my analyzer but...

I noticed this antenna has a top-hat. Was wondering if I was to replace the top section with a logger piece if I could remove the top-hat and go without it. From my understanding of a top-hat, it helps to make an antenna a bit shorter like a coil would but I could be missing a lot of info on this that I don't understand. capacitance or reactance or something else? Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.
The reason I'm asking this is I noticed in the specs that the antenna sections only overlap by 2 - 3 inches. Seems like a weak point to me at the joints so I was thinking that if I bought a longer top section I could shorten the rest of them, giving the overlap more and in my mind would make the antenna stronger. Does this make sense to anyone else or am I just making things up? It wouldn't be the first time I was thinking wrong!

Thank for any help in this. I will be buying soon but will not be putting it up very soon as the snow and ice and cold WX is not a fun time to be on a tower. Witch brings up another point. I have a 3 element Steppir on a 40ft tower. It has a mast that is about three longer above the Steppir. I was thinking of putting the vertical above the Steppir. I know I really don't have the separation I should have between the two but was hoping that if the radials on the vertical are not in-line the the yagi elements it might not cause as much interference. Just another idea and as I said I could be wrong. The stepper is for working DX 99% of the time with a FT1000MP and the vertical is for local 11M chit chat with a CB. No big power, just barefoot CB.

Any opinions on this? thought I could possibly drop another mast pipe inside the 2" mast I have now pin the two together and push the vertical up higher but I'm not a fearless kind of person while on the tower. Strapped in and everything is a must of course but to be standing on the top plate of the tower and strapped to just the mast pipe and holding on to it for dear life just doesn't sound like much fun to me. LOL.

Any opinions on any of this would be great. I'd like to keep the cost of the vertical around 200 or less but also want something that is going to withstand strong wind as we get 60mph winds here and with guests up to 80mph now and then. And I don't want to have to go up and fix it very often. I was also going to use pop-rivets to put the elements together. Don't like the idea of hose clamps on metal. On hoses yes but to hold metal to metal???

Thanks in advance and hope to get lots of ideas and answers. Have a great holiday and hope to catch you on the air on some band and mode in the future!

 

[543_Dallas]

I wouldn't buy one just to re engineer it. The clamps will provide better electrical connection than the pip rivets. With pop rivets only you can expect them to get loose over time. As the antenna sways in the wind the holes in the soft aluminum will enlarge. There are 5/8 wave ground planes on the market that are built like a tank but they exceed the $200 budget.

If your only complaint about the W58 is that it won't stay on the mast on, I would spend some time improving how it mounts vs buying a new antenna you already have doubts about. All 5/8 wave ground planes perform about the same if they are installed correctly. The only difference is the quality of materials, construction and power rating.

 

[Blackcat630]

At my old house years ago I ran a v58 maco. I believe it mounts to the mast in the same fashion your w58 does. I had my v58 about 65 ft to base of the antenna. All open fields all directions around the property. It worked well when it stayed together. If I remember correctly the ring that all the ground plane radials mounted to broke and would spin freely. I think this happened from the wicked twisting the radials did in a wind. I never trusted the sit it on the mast and hold it in place w a bolt idea... I ended up putting a 3 ft piece of pipe into the bottom of the antenna. Got out my drill. I ran a long bolt through the ring,antenna and pipe. Out the other side..big nut..lock washer.. you get the drift... I then just u bolted this pipe to my mast pipe..done. killed two birds with one stone. Thing talked great for a year or so..then after a good wind ground plane elements began to fall/break off. This was the final straw for me. I took it down and put up an imax...no more problems after that. Most people living in town w wind breaks and mounted at lower height would probably never deal with the problems I did...just my .02

 

[longhaireddwb]

I guess i am re-engineering the thing but hadnt thought of it this way. If someone owns one of these antennas can tell me if the tophat uses a threaded top section or is a nut mounted in the top section somehow?

I also had the problem of radials breaking off. Not the spinning problem. Another issue was the plastic basket type insulator that seporated the element from the base. It broke to the point that the element dropped down inside the base and grounded out. Then it was never tight enough to stay in and would work its self up and out of the base. Id put clamps on it to keep it from falling inside the base but it would still work itself out. The tunning ring had another issue with fat pigions landing on it and bending it to the point of getting out of round or touching ends or just so out of whack it screwed up swr.

These were the problems i had with the w58 that is identical to the v58. So the new style tunning section the 500 has should keep the pidgions off and hoping the radials are stronger so they dont break off. I can use the clamps, i was just hoping a rivit would hold it from colapsing inside the next section as i delt with this problem too. Maybe the 400.00 veryical that is built stronger would be a better way for me to go but i hate to spend that much on a 5/8 vertical.

Thanks for the replys. If anyone else has an opinion or recommandation im open to segestions.

Jerry...

 

[222DBFL]

Longhaireddwb, there is another post floating around here of arcing issues with the new SPT500's I am pretty sure. This is with more than just a stock radio but none the less the issue has been discussed I am pretty sure. Also how high are you planning on placing the antenna up? At the price of the SPT500 $139 or so plus shipping you might want to spend a bit more and get a really well built 5/8 wave antenna like the Shockwave Antenna made in the USA. Not the Aussie ones. Have a look. I know it's way more expensive, but it's a way better built antenna for sure.
Also note that they state the new SPT500 has been beefed up and from the vids I have watched it bends about as much if not more than my sirio vector 4000. Some say this is a good thing as it keeps the stress off the bottom section of the antenna.
Also there seems to be a lot of reports of vswr spikes when antenna becomes wet.
Main issue I have seen lately being spoken about is the vswr changing when wet.
Like 543 stated there are some way better built 5/8 wave antennas, they do cost much more but they are also made to withstand some serious wind and weather. And every one of the Shockwave antennas I've read about have tuned perfectly and are built like a Tank. Check out the homepage at least and see the images of one you'll understand what I mean! It's a Mantenna!!!
Hope some of this wall of text hekos man! Have a good one.

 

[222DBFL]

And seriously if you have the extra loot and are going to be using the antenna for a long time to come and such, spend the extra dough and have one built that will take pretty much anything thrown at it.
Also looking at the top of the shockwave antenna and it's top hat, it has a as self tapping sheet metal screw in it or possibly a brass insert and a threaded screw for it. Here is the pic I am speaking of and one of the entire antenna.

 

[222DBFL]

I don't own either of these antennas, the SPT500 nor the Shockwave, but I have and did read and research antennas not too long ago and ended up with a sirio vector 4000 as it was what I wanted and it works well here at my QTH at 26' to the base.
But seeing as where you live and knowing it snows and such, I would spend the extra money and get a quality built antenna that will last more than a year or 2. You want to keep throwing $150 at antennas that fall apart or have to be modded to last more than a couple years or spend the extra money now and not have to worry about it falling apart in a year or 2! I'd opt out for the better antenna an be done and worry free per say. The quality of parts used and the aluminum itself will determine how well the antenna will survive bad weather. And from the looks of if and what I have read about them, the Shockwave antenna seems to rise to the top as far as a quality antenna that is well built and works well. Again, just some food for thought.

 

[longhaireddwb]

I don't own either of these antennas, the SPT500 nor the Shockwave, but I have and did read and research antennas not too long ago and ended up with a sirio vector 4000 as it was what I wanted and it works well here at my QTH at 26' to the base.
But seeing as where you live and knowing it snows and such, I would spend the extra money and get a quality built antenna that will last more than a year or 2. You want to keep throwing $150 at antennas that fall apart or have to be modded to last more than a couple years or spend the extra money now and not have to worry about it falling apart in a year or 2! I'd opt out for the better antenna an be done and worry free per say. The quality of parts used and the aluminum itself will determine how well the antenna will survive bad weather. And from the looks of if and what I have read about them, the Shockwave antenna seems to rise to the top as far as a quality antenna that is well built and works well. Again, just some food for thought.

I see what ur saying. I think i will spend the extra bucks and go this other route. Im just a cheep bastard have have a hard time letting go of my hard earned cash.

I checked out that antenna and it sounds like a solid investment. Do you or anyone else know of other antennas on the market simular to this Shockwave? I guess i should check out a few other options.

 

[222DBFL]

If you can get one the I10K. I think 543 has one of these antennas and can tell you more. I know that from others that have gotten one that they are really well thought out and built to handle extreme weather conditions. Call Shockwave and ask. Or do so more research. But I don't think you'll find a better built 5/8 wave antenna out there as far as quality of materials used all the way down to tuning the antenna before shipping it. Marked and all. I guess you could call them and have antenna built to resonant freq that is about center of where you talk at the most. Maybe 543 will have some more input as to which one is built better. Seems I recall most guys saying that the shockwave was perfect. No mods necessary. Just set it up and make sure it's tuned right. Its still on my wish list of antennas to get one day.

 

[543_Dallas]

I have a BM Technology shockwave. There is a different shockwave antenna from Australia but I know nothing about it. The only thing I didn't like about it was how the ground side of the trombone was secured. I put a pop rivet through the clamp that holds it just to make sure it was going to stay. Another guy used a solid aluminum slug inside the tubing and a small U-bolt to clamp it down. I also used a pop rivet at each section about an inch under the hose clamps. Keep in mind that I bought the first version and there have been some minor changes since then.

It is very similar to the I10k. I don't know that one is better than the other and would be proud to own either one of them. Yes it is expensive for a ground plane but you get what you pay for. The maco is a good antenna but looks like it's built out of beer cans when you set it next to a shockwave. Some locals use home brew sigma 4's and I am convinced they are better performers on transmit but it always seems like one of them is having to make repairs after a good storm.

 

[222DBFL]

Thanks 543. You own the one made here in the USA. It's the same one I posted the pics of. A grest looking antenna!! I do like
my vector 4000 and it is built pretty well for the price point. It's seen its share of windy weather and T-storms as well. Not had an issue with it yet but it's still rather new to me. But it does do well on rx and tx!!
You are right when you say you get what you pay for and also I think you're correct in saying some revisions have been made since the first BM shockwave antennas were released. The website shows good photos of the antenna and it's a whopper of one!! Mantenna for sure!!

 

[longhaireddwb]

Thank you both for the replys. I didnt realize that the i10k was only being built at soecial times and may no longer be avalible. Just fount that out. And i see 543 used pop rivits too. I just think that will keep the elements from moving better than a hose clamp. I did see some changes listed on the other forum to the antenna but they dont have to do with the main element.

I will mostlikely buy one of these monster antennas. Put it up above the yagi. But got to wait for spring. Might get it ordered soon just to get it here. I was thinking that i mihgt be able to drop a aller diamiter mast inside the 2 inch i got up now. Bolt them together. This way the vertical can be a bit farther away from yagi and would mount directly to the smaller mast with an aditiinal mounting plate. Just got to measure inside diamiter of what is up there now.

As far as spacing? How close do you think i can have these two antennas together before they start really messing with each other?

 

[222DBFL]

Keep them as far apart as possible. Unless you are able to get the vertical way above the Yagi I think it is going to skew the pattern some no matter what. I could be totally wrong here so hopefully some of the guys that have vertical antennas mounted above a beam will have some better answers. I tnink I'm correct but like I said before, I'm not an antenna expert, but have read others experiences as far as this topic goes.

 

[wavrider]

if the yagi is horizontal mount the vert right above the yagi, using the yagi as a ground plane per say.

Definitely use an rf choke or line isolator at the feed point of the vert to decouple it from the coax.

I have used I2K and A99 in this configuration andboth worked great no problems with the MosleyPRO67B yagi under them.

 

[Marconi]

I have never owned a SP500, but have several HyGain CLR2's which appear to be very similar in design, material, and construction to the SP500. The problems I see with my old HG's is their use of insulators. The base and top insulators came from antennas that were installed for years, and they all had cracks in them.

The newer 5/8 waves like the Shockwave and I-10K both use raised radiators and this puts a lot more stress on their insulators. These two antennas are heavy and that too needs to be considered if mounted above a horizontal beam.

Years ago I mounted a Starduster 7'> feet above my 4 element horizontal yagi. The SD'r radials hung down within a foot of the beam. I did not notice any SWR ill-effects with either antenna. However, these radials were pretty much vertical, so maybe that explains why I noticed little to no changes compared to both antennas standing alone in the same spot 27' feet high on a large roof-deck attached to my house. This was before analyzers, but on this deck I could tune and check my match at the feed point.

I've done two Eznec models. A 2 element horizontal yagi with a Super Penatrator 500 and horizontal radials above the beam. One model is set with the GP 4.5' feet above the yagi and the other GP is 9' feet above the yagi.

I also made two comparison models for both the GP and the beam standing alone, on the same mast, and at the same heights and I see very little difference compared to the SP500 above the yagi at either height 4.5' feet or 9' feet. The patterns do show a bit of difference, but they are close enough for government work.

Below are the overlays for comparisons and you can see there is not much difference.