The Myth Surrounding Antenna Take Off Angles

[LeapFrog]

If this were in the CB section of the forum it is where someone would jump in and say that if hams didn't like what they read they should stay out of the CB forums and refrain from commenting in them however we won't do that as everyone is welcome but they should be prepared to hear things that they do not agree with since this section deals more with reality than it does perception when it comes to technical aspects.

Are you trying to say some CB'ers have a strong imagination about "how things should work"? lol

 

[HomerBB]

I have a strong imagination. I once thought I saw a big pink elephant... Then I took my meds.

 

[Flatop]

http://www.rigpix.com/kenwood/ts440s.htm
Kenwood specs old ts 440
https://www.cnet.com/products/cobra-29-ltd-classic-cb-radio/
cobra 29 specs

Sensitivity is different??
On SSB there is a big difference.
Once again comparing apples to oranges.
I do agree the brownings have a great receive, especially if one knows how to increase the gain in the If sections. my Browning Eagle and Mark II can hear a gnat fart three counties away.

As far as sarcasm?, last I remember this is a radio forum, ALL the ham bands and 11 meters are full of sarcasm, what makes you think that an online forum dedicated to the hobby would be any different?

Wavrider, I am not trying to argue about radio sensitivity, there were posts about this which were beyond my control and again, irrelevant to the original discussion. For your information though, I have dedicated CB radios that have the same or better sensitivity than most Ham radios. But we have started over, the sensitivity of the designated radio for testing has no effect on TOA, it is a datum. How many times do I have to explain this? There is no disputing this, it is a practical fact.
My concern about bagging CBers is a real one, there is a definite tendency for people to criticise CB for no real reason, and out of context. The last quote I gave was stand alone, no other text associated with it. Pretty unusual considering this was meant to be a thread talking about TOA. There is an imbalance, the CB forum isn't ridiculing amateurs left right and centre. I'm just a little tired of it, I see it on every forum and it is not fair.

 

[Flatop]

Flat top the CB vers Ham radio stuff never ends well.
Everyone is entitled to a opinion.
Sometimes on internet forums you need a little thicker skin to allow others to post there opinion with out getting butt hurt.
I guess I could point out that this is the Amateur section of the forum but most of us manage to get over it with out being too anal about it.
It has worked well over many years.....
Try to lighten up and just enjoy the forum.

73
Jeff

Cheap jokes about CBers is not an opinion. Aside from this, Wavrider has obviously made some statements which defy basic logic and nobody has pulled him up on it. Funny considering that the joke about CBers started with them not abiding by physics.
I'm not trying to start a fight here, was just pointing out something based on my observations. It would seem that people are now engaging me, some of them in a not so nice manner. I am entitled to an opinion as well, and I have not been rude, condescending nor threatening.

 

[DXman]

Hello Flatop,
I have read though this whole topic and I don't see where Wavrider has offend me as a operator on 11 meters. In fact he corrected me on a rotor that I was talking about in another thread.

This forum is a great forum, don't get discouraged by a few remarks about CB operators, it's all in good fun.

Note: Wavrider, you were right, the rotor was not a CD45, it is a M rotor #5.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

Soooo... as far as take off angle goes, the actual angle is only part of the information needed. Where the nulls are and how to make sure they aren't where you are trying to talk is more important. The nulls can be moved by changing the antenna height? Would this be the proper way or would it be better to design it into the antenna to begin with? Learning a lot here, I am fascinated with RF power transmission.

 

[Rick330man]

(I)

I do agree the brownings have a great receive, especially if one knows how to increase the gain in the If sections. my Browning Eagle and Mark II can hear a gnat fart three counties away.

But staying true to the OP, the question is whether it can tell the gnat fart's take-off angle from three counties away?

I have my doubts.

(II)
On the serious side, here in the lower Florida Keys we are surrounded by water. That enables radio propagation to take some seriously interesting twists at times. It can also be your friend - like when it does you the courtesy of bouncing your radio waves endlessly.

We talk house to boat to a variety of locations in each and every direction. It just depends where we head out to on a given day. That means my need is for truly omni-directional coverage. Better gain is great, but not at the risk of a null that kills gain in a particular direction.

Years ago, several local hams down here helping me out strongly suggested that my particular (omni-directional) radio needs were best served simply sticking a 1/4 wave as high up as I could. We actually did a little experiment with my 1/2 wave base station antenna and found that it worked really well to the NE but was considerably weaker due west. The 1/4 wave's performance was more uniform.

I'm still tweaking, but the article that starts this thread sounds very similar to advice I got from others whose radio expertise I very much trust. An interesting read.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

(I)


But staying true to the OP, the question is whether it can tell the gnat fart's take-off angle from three counties away?

I have my doubts.

(II)
On the serious side, here in the lower Florida Keys we are surrounded by water. That enables radio propagation to take some seriously interesting twists at times. It can also be your friend - like when it does you the courtesy of bouncing your radio waves endlessly.

We talk house to boat to a variety of locations in each and every direction. It just depends where we head out to on a given day. That means my need is for truly omni-directional coverage. Better gain is great, but not at the risk of a null that kills gain in a particular direction.

Years ago, several local hams down here helping me out strongly suggested that my particular (omni-directional) radio needs were best served simply sticking a 1/4 wave as high up as I could. We actually did a little experiment with my 1/2 wave base station antenna and found that it worked really well to the NE but was considerably weaker due west. The 1/4 wave's performance was more uniform.

I'm still tweaking, but the article that starts this thread sounds very similar to advice I got from others whose radio expertise I very much trust. An interesting read.

Whether you use a 1/4 wave or a 1/2 or even a 5/8 wave omni is immaterial as the horizontal pattern is essentially the same only the elevation angle changes and only local coverage is slightly affected.

 

[Rick330man]

Whether you use a 1/4 wave or a 1/2 or even a 5/8 wave omni is immaterial as the horizontal pattern is essentially the same only the elevation angle changes and only local coverage is slightly affected.

https://www.w8ji.com/VHF mobile vertical.htm

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

https://www.w8ji.com/VHF mobile vertical.htm

I have read it many times. It reinforces my assertion that in the horizontal plane antenna pattern remain the same only the TOA changes with vertical length. They are all essentially omnidirectional with minor gain differences. Explain your point.

 

[Rick330man]

I have read it many times. It reinforces my assertion that in the horizontal plane antenna pattern remain the same only the TOA changes with vertical length. They are all essentially omnidirectional with minor gain differences. Explain your point.

It is consistent with the original proposition put forth.

 

[wavrider]

Rickman330man I could not get the Gnat to stay still long enough to determine the TOA

 

[Flatop]

Hello Flatop,
I have read though this whole topic and I don't see where Wavrider has offend me as a operator on 11 meters. In fact he corrected me on a rotor that I was talking about in another thread.

This forum is a great forum, don't get discouraged by a few remarks about CB operators, it's all in good fun.

Note: Wavrider, you were right, the rotor was not a CD45, it is a M rotor #5.

Wavrider didn't make any remarks about CBers. Moving on, I'll let people continue to talk about the original topic which is of value.

 

[kopcicle]

I'm usually more concerned with nulls. Then again I do most things basackwards.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I'm usually more concerned with nulls. Then again I do most things basackwards.

And you should be after all that 30 dB null means a hell of a lot more than that 4 or 5 dB gain, 9 dB if you are lucky, in the main lobe.