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The whole truth, and nothing but the truth - Counterpoise

HomerBB

Sr. Member
Jan 4, 2009
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Rogers, Ar
I am initiating this thread in order to stimulate discussion regarding the matter of differentiating between the terms Groundplane (GP) and Counterpoise (CP). I used the term in another thread and prompted some comments that were interesting, but fell short of total accuracy by way of incomplete explanation.

I have gone on a search and found this link:

Counterpoise?

Let's see what can be said about this.

Homer
 
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I tried reading from the link required. I already read almost 80 pages concerning antenna systems. I just can't get enough concetration for it to sink in.
That's why a discussion thread is asked for, so questions and answers can help to sort out the finer and more challenging points on the subject.

It has taken me months of reading some of the antenna materials to begin to grasp parts of it. What went over my head after a while starts to come together as previous parts get clearer.
Stay with it.
 
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The two are used interchangeably it seems, however, they are definitely not the same thing.

The groundplane is not part of the antenna, yet it affects its radiation pattern. It is literally the ground.

Counterpoise by definition is a force that either balances or neutralizes an opposing force. It is really not a good fit for radio as there is no opposing force, there is a need for balance however, the top and bottom of a dipole balance each other. A mobile installation uses a car body to attempt to balance the antenna, and many base antennas use radials. These are not groundplanes (as they are often referred) as they are a radiating component of the antenna, although in some cases they can have some similar effects, and can be DC grounded.

At least that is how I see it. Even though, I often use the words interchangeably because not everyone realizes that what they refer to as groundplanes really are not.

I haven't had a chance to read you linked post yet, as I am about to leave to go camping that will have to wait until I get back Sunday...


The DB
 
Thanks for commenting, however, if you read the link I posted above presenting an article written by L B Cebik it might provoke you to more thought on the subject . . .
It certainly did that for me.
 
Homer,, You shit stirrer.


Counterpoise? Another name for the other half of the antenna.

The vertical 1/4 wl antenna, the ground radials are the counterpoise.
They are connected to the feedline IE coax.

Ladder Line feed vertical. Raised counterpoise wires/ground plane.

the term IMO ground plane is used incorrectly as any radial connected to the shield of the coax is the counterpoise.

The ground plane is the ground underneath the antenna, or a screen, or chicken wire, field fence whatever the op wants to lay or bury in the ground that is NOT connected to the transmission line/coax..

On my 80 meter vertical I put out 24 1/4 wl radials on the ground and all of this was connected to the well casing going into the ground 120'. The shield of the coax was then connected to this ground laid counterpoise at the well casing. The center of the coax was connected to the vertical element 1/4wl on 80 meters.

SO the radials on the ground are the counterpoise, not ground radials because it is part of the antenna.

Good discussion, LB's site is great and a wealth of information.
 
it is interesting how terminology gets twisted over the years, i like Laport's version but im sure i have used the term incorrectly even though i have read cebik's article before.
 
it is interesting how terminology gets twisted over the years, i like Laport's version but im sure i have used the term incorrectly even though i have read cebik's article before.
And so have I apparently used it incorrectly in light of Cebik's writing. However, I used it as I had been led to believe it by today's crossed up way of applying it.
 
Homer,, You shit stirrer.

Perhaps, as it may stir it up, but that is not my intention. It is rather to get a good breaking up of the latest use of it as opposed to the truest use of it that has all but vanished from use by inaccuracies.
Counterpoise? Another name for the other half of the antenna.

The vertical 1/4 wl antenna, the ground radials are the counterpoise.
They are connected to the feedline IE coax.

Ladder Line feed vertical. Raised counterpoise wires/ground plane.

the term IMO ground plane is used incorrectly as any radial connected to the shield of the coax is the counterpoise.

The ground plane is the ground underneath the antenna, or a screen, or chicken wire, field fence whatever the op wants to lay or bury in the ground that is NOT connected to the transmission line/coax..

On my 80 meter vertical I put out 24 1/4 wl radials on the ground and all of this was connected to the well casing going into the ground 120'. The shield of the coax was then connected to this ground laid counterpoise at the well casing. The center of the coax was connected to the vertical element 1/4wl on 80 meters.

SO the radials on the ground are the counterpoise, not ground radials because it is part of the antenna.

Good discussion, LB's site is great and a wealth of information.
wave, I am assuming you read the Cebik article I provided a link to, however, when I read it seemed to disagree with at least part of what you wrote. Maybe I got it wrong, but it has yet to be fully debated . . .

Your line, "Counterpoise? Another name for the other half of the antenna" is pretty much what folks say today, and yet, Cebik says something different, it seems. Read on . . .
 
Homer I read the article many times, been a member of Cebiks site for quite a few years. ( Don't mean I understand everything just been exposed to it many times).

Get ready for work here will reply more later
 
My recent research has led me to this. It may be correct, it may not be. It is just what I have found.

Ground plane by definition is a conductive material that creates a field to relfect radio waves. It is typically made of tuned radials, cut to 1/4 wavelenght of the resonant frequency of the antenna. It is the other half of the antenna system and carries the same currents as the vertical element.

A counterpoise is a substitution of the ground plane when a true ground plane isn't available. ACTs as the other half of the antenna but isn't tuned to the antenna, so it has no relation to the wavelength of the resonant frequency.
 
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That 'the other half' pretty well sums it up. So, until the correct name for it is decided on, I'm going to call that 'other half' a "TOH".
No matter what you call it all antennas have a 'TOH'. If it doesn't have a 'TOH' then current won't flow and there will be no radiation. That 'TOH' can have quite a number of different forms, ground radials, elevated radials, a single radial, or the feed line it's self. Examples of that are a ground mounted vertical, a typical 'groundplane' antenna, a dipole, and an 'A99' or a Zepp antenna.
Suit yourself...
- 'Doc
 
According to Laport, who Cebik cites for accuracy, the Counterpoise was a network of conductive materials disconnected from the earth that was limited in its distance from the actual earth to the point that it provided capacitance between the network and real earth. This would enhance the performance of antennas particularly over poor earth/soils. It is coincidental that it may bear resemblance to a groundplane set of radials.

The article takes some pains to differentiate between a counterpoise, which is not the other half of the antenna, it would seem, and a set of GP radials, which are the other half of the antenna. Additionally, Cebik seems to make the case for the counterpoise being non-existent once the antenna exceeds the point above the real earth (based on wavelength of operation) that capacitance can no longer be formed between the earth and the radials/mesh network. and he clarifies that ground contact radials, or buried, are not a counterpoise because capacitance cannot be formed to the point a true counterpoise does being isolated from earth and near enough to act as a large air capacitor.

Throughout the article he attempts to follow the trail of time over which prominent writings and general usage of the term led to an obscuration of the historical and true meaning of the two terms. His conclusion at the end of the article is that considering it will be unlikely that operators and educators will be willing to accept the reintroduction of the true historical meaning/usage of counterpoise the best solution may be to eradicate the term from antenna parlance completely.

I am not surprised by the current use of the word (which I also have done) as an exchangeable term with Goundplane, but apparently in its original truer usage it was not interchangeable at all.

That's how I read it.

Perhaps the nearest thing I see in current use of the concept is the mobile installation. Looking at it I believe I see the automobile acting as a counterpoise to the earth, the earth being the true groundplane. I find this outlook potentially sustainable due to a phenomenon all have experienced when moving an antenna from the fender or trunk, which placed the nearness of the earth closer to the 1/4 wave radiator, to the roof of the automobile. which put it farther from earth, or vice versa. SWR changed, and we sometimes struggled to recover a good match.
I believe this may be due to the alteration of the capacitance between the vertical in relationship to the distance of the insulated counterpoise of the automobile from the earth (the tires). Many have owed this SWR change to creating or removing reflection due to metallic parts of the vehicle, and in some cases this can be true, but there may be more to the story.

My thoughts . . .
I am not the teacher here, but one of those unwilling to learn my subject wrongly.
 
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A vehicle's body can't be a 'counterpoise', it's the 'ground' or the TOH. There may be no direct connection with 'dirt' but there is a capacitive connection. Same as with a magmount.
- 'Doc
 

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