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best 11meter vertical ever, period.

Hi DB,
Don't worry, it's not the first time that its been pointed out to these people that using DX is not a good idea for testing antenna's.

I'm definitely not worried about it.

It has also been pointed out that not using the identical apparatus for each antenna test (same coax, same mounting pole, same rig, same pl plugs etc) is just testing a persons ability to solder a pl plug and the fact that no two locations can ever be the same because of attenuation.

Yep. The only possible exception I can think of here is if you know antenna a performs better on apparatus 1 and antenna b performs better on apparatus 2. Although the only way to know such a thing is previous testing with said antennas side by side.

For example, you mount two antennae one wavelength apart then run both coax into a switcher box and then into a radio. Firstly, besides both set ups having completely different apparatus, the angle of TX/RX to each breaker you use in testing is critical in as far as attenuation is concerned, even each respective antenna will attenuate the other depending on where breakers are.
But it seems like educating a bacon sandwich DB at times because they WILL NOT LISTEN.

MMMM, bacon... I much prefer eating bacon than trying to educate it.

There have always been and always will be people like that. I don't let them bother me. Let them believe and do what they want. Life is much easier that way.


The DB
 
Yep, I guess you are right DB. It just goes to show though, when you get one idiot making elementary mistakes testing antennae it isn't long before you get another following suit. Then you end up with an whole army of them claiming this antenna is better than that antenna when in reality they've made a right balls up of the testing. Sometimes we are only looking for a needle width in such tests which in essense could be the difference between one soldered pl plug and another or the loss difference between two sets of coax.
It's worth a laugh reading it though.
 
From all the test i do switching back and forth between the to is 1/2 or 1 s .....i would say it will whoop the snot out of a 3 element all day long i don't care what the propagation is but it will give a 4 element a run for its money...

Just wanted to say something about this 4040 comment above.

4040 is a local in my neck of the woods. I know the radio operator that put that antenna up for 4040 too. I was on the radio when 4040 was testing that antenna for the first time and made that comment.

Scott ('4040') has been on the radio a long time. From what I gathered from that statement, I would say that he liked the antenna. Think he was influenced by the hype as much as anyone was. But I wouldn't take what he said as a scientific analysis; just a seat-of-the-pants driving experience feel-good run.

I can say that I did hear him better than I could before; if that means anything. Given that he was using the same equipment that he did before using the SGM.
 
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Hi DB,
Don't worry, it's not the first time that its been pointed out to these people that using DX is not a good idea for testing antenna's. It has also been pointed out that not using the identical apparatus for each antenna test (same coax, same mounting pole, same rig, same pl plugs etc) is just testing a persons ability to solder a pl plug and the fact that no two locations can ever be the same because of attenuation.
For example, you mount two antennae one wavelength apart then run both coax into a switcher box and then into a radio. Firstly, besides both set ups having completely different apparatus, the angle of TX/RX to each breaker you use in testing is critical in as far as attenuation is concerned, even each respective antenna will attenuate the other depending on where breakers are.
But it seems like educating a bacon sandwich DB at times because they WILL NOT LISTEN.
nav2010,

I think I missed the post that you are referring to on this thread.

Hopefully, it is not a reference to what I said about how from one moment to the next one or the other of my antennas responds better working DX.

If not, then I just am lost as to which post on the thread you are referring to.
 
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Hey there! <More audio>

Quote:
From all the test i do switching back and forth between the to is 1/2 or 1 s .....i would say it will whoop the snot out of a 3 element all day long i don't care what the propagation is but it will give a 4 element a run for its money...


Just wanted to say something about this 4040 comment above.

4040 is a local in my neck of the woods. I know the radio operator that put that antenna up for 4040 too. I was on the radio when 4040 was testing that antenna for the first time and made that comment.

Scott ('4040') has been on the radio a long time. From what I gathered from that statement, I would say that he liked the antenna. Think he was influenced by the hype as much as anyone was. But I wouldn't take what he said as a scientific analysis; just a seat-of-the-pants driving experience feel-good run.

I can say that I did hear him better than I could before; if that means anything. Given that he was using the same equipment that he did before using the SGM.

And he never did qualify it that was with the 3 el in the vertical or horizontal plane.

I can't wait to get my Gainmaster up and away from all the crap near it which is no doubt screwing with the TOA and pattern, then it will definitely outperform a 6 element!


...but only on DX (y)
 
Hey there! <More audio>



And he never did qualify it that was with the 3 el in the vertical or horizontal plane.

I can't wait to get my Gainmaster up and away from all the crap near it which is no doubt screwing with the TOA and pattern, then it will definitely outperform a 6 element!


...but only on DX (y)

I still wish you luck in your DX efforts.

That being said, I do think the definitely outperform a 6 element remark was funny and just wanted to say, good luck with that.


The DB
 
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In general, if both the directional antenna and the omnidirectional antenna are done well, the omni just won't stand a chance against the directional antenna. There can be specific instances when the omni can certainly 'get close', but that usually means something isn't as 'right' as it could be. Expecting an omnidirectional antenna to out perform a directional antenna isn't very realistic, so don't bet too much on it. If you should by chance ever find an omni that will 'whoop' a directional antenna every time... you better patent that thing! :)
- 'Doc
 
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In general, if both the directional antenna and the omnidirectional antenna are done well, the omni just won't stand a chance against the directional antenna. There can be specific instances when the omni can certainly 'get close', but that usually means something isn't as 'right' as it could be. Expecting an omnidirectional antenna to out perform a directional antenna isn't very realistic, so don't bet too much on it. If you should by chance ever find an omni that will 'whoop' a directional antenna every time... you better patent that thing! :)
- 'Doc

Now see, there you go discounting the possibility of a vertical having a different (probably lower) TOA, sending the RF on a potentially different journey of ionospheric bouncing - landing where there's a contact which the possibly higher angle Yagi can't, or doesn't reach.

From what I understand a Yagi's TOA is typically notoriously higher than verticals, (even on the lower bands like 40m & 80m) that's why you see big Ham towers with Yagis at the top, middle & near the bottom, for switchable various Take-Off angle DXing.

Maybe Marconi could do an EZNEC overlay with a Gainmaster center-fed dipole vs a 3 el Yagi, both at 40'(?) to see how their angles compare...?
 
And how does that generalization not account for TOA? I think too much emphasis is placed on that TOA anyway. The best, or most distant signal, isn't limited to a low TOA, it can be at almost any TOA.
- 'Doc
 
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Oh really now..... Id like to meet them. But for now my Sigma 4 resides rotting away in the weeds and vines along the back fence row.
However if i believed that a 1/2 wave J pole works better than my 5/8 wave then id pack a bong with some good weed!!!!(y)

Since the Sigma is rotting in the weeds with a broken potted metal connector bracket, Sirio now uses a much more robust connector bracket. I'm sure if you emailed them, you could get a replacement very economically. If the bracket was potted metal it has to be a Vector since the Sigma used several pieces of cut angle aluminum to form the base bracket and no potted metal parts. If you have trouble getting the part, email me and I'll get you the new bracket.

I'd like you to be able to install the antenna in that tree you mentioned so you can get a feel for it's performance that is likely to change your current opinion. Not sure why you don't recognize the cone radiates similarly to sleeve style antennas and that is supported by the best computer models available. Have you examined the CST model posted on this site? Many have to see it first hand in the field to believe it and that's fine. Let's make that happen.

My clients replace half waves with this design more frequently then I can count. My inbox is stuffed with email from them over the years with nothing but positive remarks on how the installation improved their coverage. Unfortunately many of them have to reduce their power to remain within their ERP but it still speaks volumes with respect to the gain over a half wave.
 
However if i believed that a 1/2 wave J pole works better than my 5/8 wave then id pack a bong with some good weed!!!!(y)

i've smoked a few packed bongs in my life, but its never ever deluded me into thinking a 5/8 wave is better than a sigma/vector, at extreme distance on line of sight communications, the sigma/vector has always been slightly better than any 5/8 wave i've used,

but i still prefer the smaller more neighbour friendly 5/8 wave as its less of an eyesore and in my experience less likely to get you grief from local council planning officers in the uk. i also find they stand up to the very rough weather conditions my city see's on a regular basis, i've also found the gamma match seizing to be a common problem area in them once corrosion starts, although its easily sorted out.


as for which is better for skywave dx, thats just a pointless and for the most part unprovable debate, both work superbly well when conditions allow and i'd be happy with any of them, come to that a 1/2 wave endfed/dipole or 1/4 wave groundplane all work well when conditions allow, but as propagation is far too changeable, (even second by second) it is impossible to tell which is better.

one thing is proveable though, anyone who states my antenna is better for skywave dx than X antenna because its worked here or there is talking one huge pile of shite. anyone with any knowledge of serious radio dx via skywave knows how unpredictable it is, thats what draws them to dx'ing in the first place.

i have proved many times confidence in the voice attracts far more exotic dx than any over hyped antenna ever will, people naturally avoid those who sound very nervous in favour of a more confident (easier qso) operator,

it comes down to a simple human trait called laziness.

if you don't believe me try this simple test, if you are confident and successful at dx'ing (and i don't mean working countless activations for a s9/r5 report), get someone who isn't, to use your station, i guarantee they lack the success you find, by the same token the reverse is true, if your nervous/unconfident at dx'ing, invite a more experienced operator too your shack and he'll show you just how capable that gear you lack faith in really is.

i've even proved it on some peoples setups that were running amps and lacking success, yet when i turn their amp off, i still get contacts, why is that? belief in your equipment and yourself brings a lot more than piece of mind, even after a heavily packed bong ;)
 
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images
 
Sigma-4 / Tagra BT-104 (Swiss Made)

I re-acquired an antenna sold to a friend many years ago that came down in a bad storm. While cleaning, repairing and restoring the "thought to be" sigma-4 actually had "Tagra" cast into the aluminum base. Turned out to be the "tagra BT-104. It's most noticeable detail is the flat-sided section clamps from the top down.
It sure is nice to have a piece of CB history, even if it is just a conversation piece... but that IS, what we do.
 

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