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New thread to debate V-4000

lol the article nosee posted is talking about bandwidth at 6db return loss,
he can't read english so he makes his own version up as he goes along,

nobody could actually believe a gamma match has 6db loss in an ideal circuit and more in the real world,

what does w8ji say

"The gamma match capacitor can only cancel reactance, it can not modify the "real part" (resistance) presented to the feedline.
It is the most simple form of matching, and has the lowest operating Q and loss of any system (when it is useable)"


its true a gamma match has to handle circulating currents and antenna currents but the great loss is a figment of nosee's imagination,
on a par with vortex q-section claims.

Bob85 is absolutely correct.

If gamma matching was so lossy why would they be so widely used? I've seen more yagi antennas with gamma matching than all other forms of matching combined. I've seen them from HF all the way to UHF, including some that almost reach the lowest frequencies referenced in the link nosee used. He clearly didn't read or understand what was being talked about in his own linked article. I personally think he just posted it because "CST" was mentioned in it near the end.


The DB
 
Bob85 is absolutely correct.

If gamma matching was so lossy why would they be so widely used? I've seen more yagi antennas with gamma matching than all other forms of matching combined. I've seen them from HF all the way to UHF, including some that almost reach the lowest frequencies referenced in the link nosee used. He clearly didn't read or understand what was being talked about in his own linked article. I personally think he just posted it because "CST" was mentioned in it near the end.


The DB

As we say in "Spanish" (Castilian language truly, in Spain they speak at least 6 languages) , --"se quemaron los papeles"--"papers were burned"

burning-paper_h240.jpg



Matching the impedances isn't particularly efficient: it actually gives a 6dB loss in a ideal circuit. In a REAL WORLD is much more.:whistle:

CST whitepaper(CST "baton of shockwave")

https://www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&...oK4y8UHWqP5NoFU7z5c47yw&bvm=bv.56988011,d.cWc

"...A good im-pedance match is easily achieved by adding losses to the match-ing circuit but this naturally results in a poor efficiency of the
antenna.


...
This topology is very sensitive to the component variations and
therefore the performance could drop by 5 dB due to the compo-nent tolerances

.......Put in another way,
as the obtainable bandwidth at 6 dB return loss level is more than
the required Bluetooth system bandwidth, a two-component
matching circuit can cover the Bluetooth system band with much
better return loss than 6 dB.........."


I are "no see"

but ......

shockwave was medical consultation!!(And consulting engineers)

prensa_flores.jpg


:D
 
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As we say in "Spanish" (Castilian language truly, in Spain they speak at least 6 languages) , --"se quemaron los papeles"--"papers were burned"

Matching the impedances isn't particularly efficient: it actually gives a 6dB loss in a ideal circuit. In a REAL WORLD is much more.:whistle:

You have no evidence of this, and if this were true we would be very limited in the antennas that function well, especially with a limited 4 watts input. Essentially this would limit us to a center fed dipole and a quarter wavelength groundplane, and almost nothing else. All of those 5/8 wavelength base antennas would be useless. Yagi's would have to be huge to overcome the effects of the losses you are claiming here. Simply, if what you say is true, what would be available, and even useable, in the real world would be far different that what is available today.

CST whitepaper(CST "baton of shockwave")

https://www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&...oK4y8UHWqP5NoFU7z5c47yw&bvm=bv.56988011,d.cWc

"...A good im-pedance match is easily achieved by adding losses to the match-ing circuit but this naturally results in a poor efficiency of the
antenna.

This statement is taken out of context, so your again following that theme. This very principle has been proven time and time again even in the CB band, however, the losses in question are not part of any specific matching network. They can be achieved simply by using a a longer feedline. It doesn't matter where the losses come from, losses typically increase the appearance of a match. In essence they hide the true feedpoint impedance of the antenna itself. I don't know of any antenna design in use today that incorporates a matching network that uses pure losses as your quote here would require. How do I know that is what it is refedring to? I red the entire paragraph it was in to get the context of what was being said.

Read the entire paragraph you quoted that line from as well as the rest of the paper as a whole. Your not even in the ballpark of the actual goals and intents of the article when using it to refer to gamma matches.

...
This topology is very sensitive to the component variations and
therefore the performance could drop by 5 dB due to the compo-nent tolerances

This statement is absolutely correct, for a 2+ GHz antenna that fits inside of a bluetooth device. While the principles are the same, if you bother to do the calculations they used to come up with this data for commonly used matching networks, including the gamma match, at cb frequencies, you won't find anywhere near that loss level. Go ahead, do the math.

.......Put in another way,
as the obtainable bandwidth at 6 dB return loss level is more than
the required Bluetooth system bandwidth, a two-component
matching circuit can cover the Bluetooth system band with much
better return loss than 6 dB.........."

This doesn't come immediately after the above as you are implying with that "put another way" portion right at the top. It is on a completely separate page and is talking about something else entirely.

In SWR terms this is referring to a useable bandwidth range of 14:1 where anything under 14:1 SWR would be considered acceptable. This does have to do with matching networks, but is not referring to losses in the matching networks, it is referring to the bandwidth of the antenna when using such a matching network.

Your own linked article is clearly far beyond your own understanding of antenna theory. You lack the knowledge to even put it into context. Speaking of context, when talking about the frequencies the Vector 4000 is used at it is irrelevant, unless you plan on scaling the vector antenna to be 0.1125 meters long or smaller to use on these frequencies. That would be some scaling...

Taking an article that describes antennas that are not only nothing like the antenna in question, but in use on frequencies that are orders of magnitude higher (or lower for that matter) boils down to either being intentionally misleading, or incompetence. Still, I guess, following the form you have previously used, you will continue to push and claim no one disproved it. No one needs to disprove it as it is not in context of this discussion.

Now if we were talking about bluetooth devices or other devices that use a similar frequency range your linked article would be relevant.


The DB
 
So why don't you study and learn about the topic for yourself? I could give you a basics course on impedance matching off the top of my head if you were worthy... Although you would have to give me a good reason to bother, and with your posts so far that not likely going to happen any time soon...

Do you even know that different methods have very different advantages, and disadvantages? Is it in your grasp that impedance matching doesn't even always have to be done at the feedpoint of the antenna, and the considerations that go into impedance matching elsewhere in the antenna system?

In any case, any impedance matching method in the CB band will have significantly less loss associated with it than 6 dB. Let me give an example of this. In optimal, well lab really, conditions a 5/8 wavelength antenna will get about 3 dB gain over a 1/4 wavelength antenna. However, a 1/4 wavelength antenna needs no matching network while a 5/8 wavelength antenna does. If your 6 dB figure has any merit the 5/8 wavelength antennas would suffer a loss over 1/4 wavelength antennas of at least 3 dB, and in the real world even more. If that were the case why are they so popular as base cb antennas, or mobile 2-meter ham radio antennas? What would be the point as the best they could do would be worse than the a smaller, easier to manage, cheaper, and typically more durable antenna? This is the magnitude of your claim.

Here is a question for you, do you have any idea in how and what antenna matching has to do with antenna bandwidth, and the difference in dB (and return loss) calculations when referring to bandwidth and losses due to matching? Oh wait, if you understood that much you would understand your own quotes from your link are way out of context at best.

You continue to show your lack of understanding of even basic principles of antenna theory, yet you continue to argue with futility. Your so called proof is irrelevant. Find me some more relevant data, if you can.

I do find it humorous that you are accusing someone who has worked in IT nearly as long as you claim to have been working with antennas doesn't know how to search the web for data. And when it comes to tests on antenna theory, you have already failed miserably...

Hmm perhaps I should come up with a test for you just to see how you do...


The DB

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention this new link of yours... It is not a matching network calculator, it is an attenuator calculator. It says that right in the title of the page. Do you even know the difference? Attenuators do not exist to match feedlines to antennas, they have other purposes. For example, you might use one on the input of an amplifier so you don't overdrive it and burn it up... They exist is to create loss, that is their job. You have failed miserably yet again... All that being said, there are some useful tools available on that web site. Nothing, however, that will support your arguments...
 
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Can you imagine if only 25% of this time and energy were invested in learning the material rather than attempting to debate those who already have? At this point he just appears to be trying his best to win the forum jackass award. If we take a poll, I assure you he has my vote.
 
You failed miserably to once again

I'm not putting to argue with someone who ignores an impedance adapter is an attenuator, and still ensures that it is not.

Continue studying.
 
You failed miserably to once again

I'm not putting to argue with someone who ignores an impedance adapter is an attenuator, and still ensures that it is not.

Continue studying.

Tell us what you're experience here is NoSee? I don't want to know what you know because you think you know it all. I want to know how many gamma matches you've made and tested to arrive at this conclusion? Does it bother you to spot the holes in your theory when I have built over 1200 gammas and none have melted the hot glue inside the heatshrink tubing seal at multiple kilowatts of VHF power? Of course not, you have your selective denial defense mechanism engaged.

As far as studying, hook us up with the formal details of your electronics education. Can you provide the name of the school you attended? Any diploma or degree earned? I'm sure there has to be other people in Argentina who desire to learn electronics and they are certainly going to want to avoid attending the same facility.
 
You failed miserably to once again

I'm not putting to argue with someone who ignores an impedance adapter is an attenuator, and still ensures that it is not.

Continue studying.

You don't know the difference between an antenna tuner and an attenuator do you...

An antenna tuner uses inductors and capacitors to match one complex impedance to another. An attenuator, on the other hand, is widely used to attenuate an RF signal, or make it weaker. These are used for so called "high drive" amplifiers, fox hunting, and have any number of uses in testing situations.

I suppose you *could* use an attenuator to match an antennas impedance to a feedline impedance, by why would you want to. They are notoriously inefficient.

Between the two of us, who is it that needs to study here? Ask around, you will get a unanimous answer, and it isn't me. You try to take the part of a teacher, yet don't know the subject matter well enough to understand what you are even saying... I've been around these forums for several years and if you were correct about pretty much anything there would be people jumping in to back you up. That hasn't happened for you, you should wonder why that is...


The DB
 
You don't know the difference between an antenna tuner and an attenuator do you...

An antenna tuner uses inductors and capacitors to match one complex impedance to another. An attenuator, on the other hand, is widely used to attenuate an RF signal, or make it weaker. These are used for so called "high drive" amplifiers, fox hunting, and have any number of uses in testing situations.

I suppose you *could* use an attenuator to match an antennas impedance to a feedline impedance, by why would you want to. They are notoriously inefficient.

Between the two of us, who is it that needs to study here? Ask around, you will get a unanimous answer, and it isn't me. You try to take the part of a teacher, yet don't know the subject matter well enough to understand what you are even saying... I've been around these forums for several years and if you were correct about pretty much anything there would be people jumping in to back you up. That hasn't happened for you, you should wonder why that is...


The DB

I'm talking about antenna engineering, engineering transmision lines, and you're talking about amateur radio,

a "one boy told me."

If you want to continue to be guided by what they say and do not try to figure out on their own, will continue to believe the same fantasies.

"Antenna impedance is a simple concept. Impedance relates the voltage and current at the input to the antenna. The real part of the antenna impedance represents power that is either radiated away or absorbed within the antenna. The imaginary part of the impedance represents power that is stored in the near field of the antenna. This is non-radiated power. An antenna with a real input impedance (zero imaginary part) is said to be resonant."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_(radio)

It has many parts antenna not constructive, that look like they are not taken into account by not.
Or maybe people interested to know there is not? This adds or removes the forum really?

Excuse me.
 
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So I'm talking about "amateur radio" simply because I list a use that applies to them? Interesting... OK, lets test that...

So mr antenna engineer that has far less training than a typical CB operator that paid someone else to tune their antenna for them...

Why would you use a method of matching an antenna to a feedline that induces so much in the way of losses when other options are available to you? Why use resistors when inductors and capacitors are much more efficient, and better for the job at hand?

Until you answer that question I will ask it in every post I make that is directed at you in this thread.

Should I go on with asking questions? Hmm, I did toy with the idea of creating a test for you... Perhaps I should, just to see if you can get any of the answers correct... That being said, the last answer I got from you took you a week, and you still got it wrong...

It is clear with what you have said thus far in this and other threads that you know nothing about antenna engineering.

And what is wrong with being a ham, many broadcast engineers are hams, does that make the knowledge they have any less relevant? Of course this is in response to you, who likely doesn't even have a ham radio license... Further, many broadcast engineers keep a copy of the ARRL Antenna Book on hand simply as a reference. Have you ever even opened a copy of that book up?

Being able to quote wikipedia does not make you an antenna engineer...

And that last paragraph was so poorly translated by your translator that I can't understand it. I have an idea of what you are trying to say, but the way the words came out I cannot be sure... I guess the translator works equally poorly in both directions.


The DB
 
NoSee, there is nothing wrong with earning your place as the most uninformed person in the forum. The problem is you don't realize it and you work very hard in an attempt to argue with those who do. You can pretend to know what you're talking about when you're among those who don't.

In this case you will never change field tests conducted in a scientific method on the topic you're debating. You therefore have ZERO chance of convincing several people here who have learned from their own experience, that what we see with our own eyes is not true because you said so.
 
I'm talking about antenna engineering, engineering transmision lines, and you're talking about amateur radio,

a "one boy told me."

If you want to continue to be guided by what they say and do not try to figure out on their own, will continue to believe the same fantasies.

"Antenna impedance is a simple concept. Impedance relates the voltage and current at the input to the antenna. The real part of the antenna impedance represents power that is either radiated away or absorbed within the antenna. The imaginary part of the impedance represents power that is stored in the near field of the antenna. This is non-radiated power. An antenna with a real input impedance (zero imaginary part) is said to be resonant."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_(radio)

It has many parts antenna not constructive, that look like they are not taken into account by not.
Or maybe people interested to know there is not? This adds or removes the forum really?

Excuse me.

To add to this and not repeat it, you see that the performance of the antenna in question is well below 50%, and this image has already been published previously.

11761d1385326065-new-thread-debate-v-4000-mito.jpg


If you have something better, I would like to see it published, because

I only see drawings and thousands of car salesman verbiage, but I see no diagrams, no more real evidence that words and pictures. I have not seen a single proof that the SIGMA 4 pays more than a 5/8 more than words and more hand drawings.
 

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Wasting your time NoSee. Anyone who understands modeling results already learned everything they needed to know about how this design works from the CST model. Such a clear and precise model of the collinear currents in phase emitting from the cone and top vertical need no outside misinterpretation using substandard software.

No one cares about your toy model that has been proven highly inconsistent with field results. Key word being "results", the very thing your cheap software is failing to accurately predict in this case. Something I have the results on while you simply try to predict them in your house. You can't get any results or realize how wrong your models are because YOU NEVER TEST ANY OF YOUR PREDICTIONS IN THE FIELD!
 
Wasting your time NoSee. Anyone who understands modeling results already learned everything they needed to know about how this design works from the CST model. Such a clear and precise model of the collinear currents in phase emitting from the cone and top vertical need no outside misinterpretation using substandard software.

No one cares about your toy model that has been proven highly inconsistent with field results. Key word being "results", the very thing your cheap software is failing to accurately predict in this case. Something I have the results on while you simply try to predict them in your house. You can't get any results or realize how wrong your models are because YOU NEVER TEST ANY OF YOUR PREDICTIONS IN THE FIELD!

yes..You have reason Mr...

like this?
You know very well where this drawing is handmade "proof" of the antenna efficiency.
Sure the CST STUDIO SUITE® software did for you!!:D
 

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