How to diagnose and resolve an apparent RF issue in my Anytone AT-5555N II setup

[TimmyTheTorch]

Start off with something like this:

1.5 x7" C-110 Copper Busbar Power Distribution Bus Bar Terminal Block | eBay

The Busbar is made from C110 Copper. The Busbar / Ground Bar is insulated using "Glastic" (MBI) insulators rated at 600 volts. Ground / Bus Bar Kit. They are drilled for 1/4" bolts to attach the insulators and 0.201" holes for mounting.

www.ebay.com

and ground all of your equipment to it. Then use a large single conductor (copper strap/wide braid) and run it to an outside 8' ground rod using as short a run as possible.

I don't think the Anytone or amp have a dedicated ground connector so I assume I just loosen a chassis screw and insert an eyelet connecting to the ground wire in this case. The PSU does have a ground connection as does the antenna tuner.

What type/gauge of wire is recommended to connect individual devices like the Q5N2 chassis, amp chassis, SWR meter chassis, antenna tuner (if/when used) to the copper bus bar? I can see heavier gauge copper wire being a bit of a challenge to use.

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

I would not change a thing until you can verify the setup with a different radio. Both try a different radio in the station, and listen to yourself on a second radio.

Often times where I work, when a big problem develops on a piece of equipment, everyone on the back shifts are doing everything to it. Creating more problems. We will come in and it will take us half a day just to work back to the original problem. It is amazing how the process of elimination will escape the "trained professionals".

I work as a software engineer and definitely agree the team (including me) sometimes bypasses the simple/obvious root cause while we are digging into an issue. Obviously the hardware end of it is not in my wheelhouse but I do enjoy learning about it.

 

[Handy Andy]

As others have suggested, start small - work out the problems with the radio.

The condition you speak of can be from several sources, one being you have created a feedback path - not just from grounding the station - but in the way you grounded it.

Another is the sheer level of interconnection - you may have a bad piece of equipment or something in the piece of equipment - that doesn't appreciate the level of power you are passing thru it.

You may have generated the feedback thru the two types of grounding and the power flowing thru both of them.

You have a static arrestor - which if you had installed - does need to be monitored for damages not just from storms, but from GROUND POTENTIALS that can change the potential differences between grounding points - even on a lower-smaller scale of homes where one type of grounding for the service entrance is different than the grounding at your station.

Therefore, making a simple 120V AC practice become something of hazardous method of trying to drain potentials to maintain that 120VAC difference amongst the poles at the service entrance and the 120 V you're expecting to use at your station. You will have ground currents trying to find the lowest state of rest - and in the junctions of the coax, negative leads and any form of bonding to the equipment cases itself - electrons will use as a means to try and find that condition.

That may not bode well for the equipment you start out on; being where the microphone is at, (you) and the feedback is getting into it and wreaking havoc either with the limiters in the radio - or the RF feedback arriving back to the radio overpowering your microphone and or the amplifier in the radio - causing this distortion.

Leakage of RF back into the shack from bad coax or the interconnections and case designs that leave the ground current to the exterior of the device may work as shielding but also make the path to ground appear better than even thru Coax that is supposed to bond the case to itself - so the exterior of the case may have two types of paths to ground one RF the other being Electrical DC on up to and including Audio - having difference appearance of impedances in the process - so the wanted or desired impedance - and the expected impedance of the device and what it exhibits - may place you in the path of shocks you may not want to deal with. Let along the ground currents generating interference with equipment not even in the same path - like TV, Radio and other people's stuff.

So before you burn your lips off asking for asking for a radio check - no matter how kindly - Electricity and RF power may take precedence and decide the proper path and that might include you during this process.

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

As others have suggested, start small - work out the problems with the radio.

The condition you speak of can be from several sources, one being you have created a feedback path - not just from grounding the station - but in the way you grounded it.

Another is the sheer level of interconnection - you may have a bad piece of equipment or something in the piece of equipment - that doesn't appreciate the level of power you are passing thru it.

You may have generated the feedback thru the two types of grounding and the power flowing thru both of them.

You have a static arrestor - which if you had installed - does need to be monitored for damages not just from storms, but from GROUND POTENTIALS that can change the potential differences between grounding points - even on a lower-smaller scale of homes where one type of grounding for the service entrance is different than the grounding at your station.

Therefore, making a simple 120V AC practice become something of hazardous method of trying to drain potentials to maintain that 120VAC difference amongst the poles at the service entrance and the 120 V you're expecting to use at your station. You will have ground currents trying to find the lowest state of rest - and in the junctions of the coax, negative leads and any form of bonding to the equipment cases itself - electrons will use as a means to try and find that condition.

That may not bode well for the equipment you start out on; being where the microphone is at, (you) and the feedback is getting into it and wreaking havoc either with the limiters in the radio - or the RF feedback arriving back to the radio overpowering your microphone and or the amplifier in the radio - causing this distortion.

Leakage of RF back into the shack from bad coax or the interconnections and case designs that leave the ground current to the exterior of the device may work as shielding but also make the path to ground appear better than even thru Coax that is supposed to bond the case to itself - so the exterior of the case may have two types of paths to ground one RF the other being Electrical DC on up to and including Audio - having difference appearance of impedances in the process - so the wanted or desired impedance - and the expected impedance of the device and what it exhibits - may place you in the path of shocks you may not want to deal with. Let along the ground currents generating interference with equipment not even in the same path - like TV, Radio and other people's stuff.

So before you burn your lips off asking for asking for a radio check - no matter how kindly - Electricity and RF power may take precedence and decide the proper path and that might include you during this process.

I appreciate the detailed information and am trying to digest its contents. I am unsure if the above means I should remove the MFJ lightning surge suppressor entirely and/or connect a ground strap to the Anytone and the bus bar (which is in turn connected to the ground rod outside, which is in turn connected to the main AC ground rod).

There sure is a lot of conflicting information out there on the interweb.

Right now my summary of next steps is the following:

• Move lightning surge protector wire to the same ground rod as the mast is connected to (or do I remove it entirely?)
• Connect the mast ground rod to the main house ground rod.
• Run 4 gauge copper line from mast ground rod into radio room (about 30 feet) and connect it to the bus bar. Better would be to use copper braid but it's not available locally.
• Connect a ground wire from the radio and PSU to the bus bar. \
• The antenna coax goes directly into the Anytone.

 

[Dmans]

Move lightning surge protector wire to the same ground rod as the mast is connected to
Yes
Connect the mast ground rod to the main house ground rod
Yes
The antenna coax goes directly into the Anytone
Yes

Stop here and get radio checks.

All of the other items in your shack will be interconnected with RG58 and the coax braid running between the items will (SHOULD) ground these items.

If your first radio check is good, add your SWR/Watt meter, then get another check.
If that is good, add your amplifier and get another check.

My 2 cents.

73
David

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

Lots of good info in the ARRL guide. I'm going to start experimenting shortly now that our guests have departed.

 

[Handy Andy]

@Dmans has the best advice to give so far.

But I wanted to add in this...

When you think about station ground - and the service entry ground - how well did the power company do their job?

You created another ground for the station.

Then take your tester - set it on AC 200V for starters and take one lead to NEUTRAL of the power outlet powering the equipment, and the other to the buss bar.

Ok no reading? We're not done - now back down the testers range to 20V - you may see something.

IF not go down to 2V (all of this on the AC side) and check.

Any readings show that the station ground you have, and the power company ground are different - so this means you have ground currents that can drift from your station to the service ground at their entrance.

Do the same for DC power too - may not see much but any reading shows you can have power drifting between the grounds.

Now you may feel safer with the better ground, but when it comes to flashovers and ground currents - you might want to rethink this. IT has to enter into the coax and flow thru it, to get to ground - and that is only if the arrestor fires and after it has achieved a firing voltage to start the process.

We haven't talked about all the stuff arriving to your station from the center lead yet...

But remember Ben Franklin's experiment with a key and a kite - in a thunderstorm?

He was lucky.​

We haven't discussed the water table yet - nor the solar storms and the ground currents that they can generate - will also impact you and your station.

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

I want to and will follow best practices the best I can but like with anything, handling the edge of edge cases, while a laudable goal, is probably not going to happen. My job #1 is to make it safe for me to use this radio with this antenna under normal conditions/circumstances and then/only then add any additional equipment to the mix. The ground is frozen here in northern Wisconsin so I could not drive in another ground rod outside right now even if I needed to.

I think if the gear is still not safe for me to use after moving the coax lightning surge suppressor from its own ground rod to the antenna mast ground rod and bonding that ground rod to the main house ground rod via 4 gauge copper wire and running a 4 or 6 gauge copper wire back from the newly bonded ground rod at the antenna base and connecting it to a bus bar that in turn has the chassis of the radio and PSU (plus eventually the amp and antenna tuner or SWR meter) attached to it via at least a14 AWG wire (as per ARRL document), I am going to switch back to snowmobiles as my winter hobby since it's a lot safer than keying a microphone nowadays and just use a radio in my truck.

I can't count how many videos I watched and articles I have read in the past few days that state they do not bond anything at all in their shack and they state are fine. Probably more like lucky to not have had problems if you ask me. And also "experts" that completely contradict other "experts" about how/when/if to even use a bus bar and how to connect that to ground. Grounding methodologies is definitely a subject with a lot of disagreements and I am at a distinct disadvantage because I know so little about this subject.

I can't think you all enough for sharing your experience and recommendations to me. The end result will keep me safer and I will have a much better station.

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

Move lightning surge protector wire to the same ground rod as the mast is connected to
Yes
Connect the mast ground rod to the main house ground rod
Yes
The antenna coax goes directly into the Anytone
Yes

Stop here and get radio checks.

All of the other items in your shack will be interconnected with RG58 and the coax braid running between the items will (SHOULD) ground these items.

If your first radio check is good, add your SWR/Watt meter, then get another check.
If that is good, add your amplifier and get another check.

My 2 cents.

73
David

I was able to do the first and third change but I am about 10 feet short of #4 gauge copper wire. I'll grab some of that tomorrow and continue on with the re-org.

And good news, my second radio showed up today after all. Only one day late, not too bad at all!

 

[Handy Andy]

I can't count how many videos I watched and articles I have read in the past few days that state they do not bond anything at all in their shack and they state are fine. Probably more like lucky to not have had problems if you ask me.

La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.​

Fortune favors the prepared mind - L. Pasteur

Really what it means is to be able to recognize opportunity (chance) and act upon it.

How this applies to your situation is; to know, to understand and to be educated - which then prepares you to see an opportunity and exploit it.

For you to not see details they used to describe the stations' function very well, electrically or otherwise. You would have seen the efforts placed upon specific areas - ground the antenna - at the antenna which then grounds the coax to the same potential at that point.

Is that your fault? No, you're still in the process of learning - the example above is simply to provide guidance that we all must take the time and effort to learn these things that are new to us.

There is also the notice of the effects on neighbors' equipment. Many don't get discussed - because those that feign ignorance oftentimes, simply are not having been noticed for their exploits (undisclosed - Socratic Irony).

What this means for you is to focus on your station, and your station only. The others that demonstrate their renditions are only demonstrations of products they use and the outcome of using it.

Each station is unique as well; as not just a different address but in terrain and your application to make it a viable means to propagate RF and the ground image (soil conductivity being an example).

You started off well, and I don't want to hold you back from any further discoveries you may make along this journey.

• - but I simply wanted to caution you on is to be aware of your surroundings
• - don't impair your judgement on watching other people install or operate equipment their own ways
  • - knowing that if you follow instructions (e.g. - these instructions - not those they show) your level of success in applying you own knowledge will help you attain your desires better.
    • copying their work is just that, copying - not an application of your knowledge or experience in making your station perform the way you want it to - to your standards, not theirs.
• Your experience counts more than to follow a folly of information that floods the internet with false notions and "you'll be safe if you do this" - is not taking into account your needs or the understandings of the power you'll be working with to attain those goals.

And above all remember this...

• They are not running your station.

 

[Pez]

Some great advice here that has you on the right track.
One extra thing - check your 13.8V power supply. If it is breaking down under load, or being affected with some stray RF, it can result in what you are describing.

FYI, a McKinley doesn't draw anywhere near the current of the AT-5555Nii. So if you get a good result by swapping the radio over (with a smaller radio), this could just be masking the real problem!

Another FYI (somewhat unrelated, but important): my AT-5555Nii will peak 48 watts on AM mode, at the lowest power setting! This is some big power, and current draw for the lowest power setting. (and far too much for many little amps, too).

Best fast test: Can you run your station off a car battery, and see if the problem goes away?


73

 

[TimmyTheTorch]

Made some good headway addressing the basics of the setup today. I now have the ground rod by the antenna mast connected to the house ground rod using 4 gauge copper wire. I had a 25 foot length on hand and of course I needed about 27 feet. Back to the hardware store... Then I ran a 6 gauge copper wire from a ground bus bar in my radio room outside via the shortest distance possible and connected it to the ground rod from the mast. I bonded the PSU, Anytone radio (with Zetagi MB+5 mic) and antenna tuner to the ground bus bar. The amp, LP filter and second power meter are not connected.

I did not notice any reduction in the noise level but I was able to have several good contacts with California and Texas. Both reported decent signal strength and good, clear modulation. So far, so good. If nothing else I think my station is a lot safer after fixing the mistakes I made in how I had the grounding arranged.

Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get a bit of time to hook up the second radio and listen to my own signal. Probably should order that dummy load too.

Only after I have everything else sorted will I worry about doing anything related to the amp. I doubt I will be using it with the Q5N2 moving forward.

It was only about 17F and windy outside this afternoon while I was mucking about with the ground wires but at least the sun was out. That's what you call spinning the weather.

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

A great article on grounds:

https://helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us/articles/204779159-Grounding-Systems-in-the-Ham-Shack-Paradigms-Facts-and-Fallacies

 

[loosecannon]

if you haven't already (i might have missed it in your post) be sure to connect your antenna mast ground rod to your lightning arrestor ground rod. just run a big solid copper wire from one to the other.
now you will have your house ground, and your station grounds all at the same potential.

Also, with regard to the wire run from your ground buss bar in the radio room to the ground rod outside, just try to avoid lengths between 7-10 feet, or 14-20 feet, as these are somewhat resonant lengths on 27mhz.
LC

 

[Shadetree Mechanic]

Made some good headway addressing the basics of the setup today. I now have the ground rod by the antenna mast connected to the house ground rod using 4 gauge copper wire. I had a 25 foot length on hand and of course I needed about 27 feet. Back to the hardware store... Then I ran a 6 gauge copper wire from a ground bus bar in my radio room outside via the shortest distance possible and connected it to the ground rod from the mast. I bonded the PSU, Anytone radio (with Zetagi MB+5 mic) and antenna tuner to the ground bus bar. The amp, LP filter and second power meter are not connected.

I did not notice any reduction in the noise level but I was able to have several good contacts with California and Texas. Both reported decent signal strength and good, clear modulation. So far, so good. If nothing else I think my station is a lot safer after fixing the mistakes I made in how I had the grounding arranged.

Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get a bit of time to hook up the second radio and listen to my own signal. Probably should order that dummy load too.

Only after I have everything else sorted will I worry about doing anything related to the amp. I doubt I will be using it with the Q5N2 moving forward.

It was only about 17F and windy outside this afternoon while I was mucking about with the ground wires but at least the sun was out. That's what you call spinning the weather.

I don't know if it holds true for ground wires, but antennas work better if you put them up in bad weather.