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RETUBED PHANTOM ARCING

I dont know why people are saying to squeeze them back...thats WRONG
Please get a shot of the back the the tune the side isn't a great angle.
Thanks
I will take plenty of pictures when I open it up again. The picture i added above shows the capacitor meshed as it never was before. That was immediately after the first separation and tuned for max smoke.
Thinking separating it a bit more would give it a better mesh (better capacitance) only caused the capacitor to be totally un meshed just as it was before touching the coil.
So instead of compressing the coil and starting over again, I should separate them further, correct? I can't thank you people enough.
 
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Beyond separating that coil or (because of my foolishness) depress it those options you've mentioned are beyond my ability or knowledge.
73

If you mess with this stuff long enough it will make sense and help you out one day. I've gotten a lot of advice I didn't understand until years later.

Spreading the coil can only do so much and works fine if you need a minor adjustment. Then it will be necessary to add or subtract turns from the coil. Keep in mind that using a different diameter coil or making it out if different gauge wire will have an effect on the inductance and coil Q.
 
I will take plenty of pictures when I open it up again. The picture i added above shows the capacitor meshed as it never was before. That was immediately after the first separation and tuned for max smoke.
Thinking separating it a bit more would give it a better mesh (better capacitance) only caused the capacitor to be totally un meshed just as it was before touching the coil.
So instead of compressing the coil and starting over again, I should separate them further, correct? I can't thank you people enough.
yes, just a bit, you're already doing good but 1 more will be good.
Notice any more pep when overcoupled a bit?
 
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yes, just a bit, you're already doing good but 1 more will be good.
Notice any more pep when overcoupled a bit?
I only tuned it up for max smoke. I didn't modulate. I did see a bit more dk and noticed that some if not all four tuning knobs were set in different spots after the tuning process as opposed to before spreading the coil out. I'm very upset i didn't leave it where it was but after looking at the three diagram drawings someone posted of minimum, intermedium and max capacitance I thought the mesh (capacitance) could've been more and that's why I seperated the coil a bit more.
This is exactly what i did. I pushed a small flat head screwdriver through each one of the coil rings and twisted it side to side until i noticed that each coil turn widened ever so slightly. The second time put a bit more space between each ring but that's what put the capacitor back in minimum capacitance. MOFO! I'm confident this will get to where it needs to be as long as your patience holds out
Thanks again 357
 
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I dont know why people are saying to squeeze them back...thats WRONG
Please get a shot of the back the the tune the side isn't a great angle.
Thanks

Squeeze them back together so whatever was done to the coil can be reversed and back to the original configuration.
Have to have a reference for a starting point, if Opening them a little helped, then opening them more DID NOT HELP, then back to the original starting point would be the LOGICAL step.
 
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Squeeze them back together so whatever was done to the coil can be reversed and back to the original configuration.
Have to have a reference for a starting point, if Opening them a little helped, then opening them more DID NOT HELP, then back to the original starting point would be the LOGICAL step.
I'll give it one more go. I'll squeeze them slightly together and hope they wind up in the place where the tune capacitor was meshed. if the capacitor isn't meshed I'll spread them ever so slightly. I'll go back and forth a few times until I get it right.
I've gained some confidence with this experience but didn't loose any respect for the voltage this boat anchor holds.
I'll discharge it, use insulated plier's and screwdriver (amps unplugged or course.) Thanks to all who've taken the time to help. 73. Ps if I get the capacitor to mesh and output is still low I'm going to pack it up and send it to Mike. I hate the idea of having to ship it but I've two options, send it out or put it in the closet.
 
Wow, sure wish I caught this thread earlier.

I suspect that this amplifier was built without the 'safety' choke in parallel with the Load control. This is needed to prevent a portion of the power supply's DC voltage from building up across the plates of the Load control. The amplifier's RF voltage alone should not make it arc. But a few hundred Volts DC PLUS that RF voltage will do it. D&A included that choke on some units, left it off of others. Go figure.

A RF choke with at least 22 uH should go from that control's hot terminal to ground. We usually place it alongside the antenna relay, from the center wire of the output coax where it attaches to the relay, to chassis ground on the rim of the antenna socket. The physical location is less important where it's connected. And if your amplifier has this part in it already, you may simply need a new Load control.

Any time the plates begin to arc, the surfaces of the plates become rough. A rough surface will now break down at a lower voltage than a smooth surface. Becomes a sort of downhill snowball. Pulling out a badly scorched plate or two can fix this if the damage is isolated. Only the plates on the rotor shaft can be removed without damage. The fixed plates really can't be messed with.

You REALLY have to tune it up for max modulated power to get the coil right. Simply doing this with the carrier alone will NEVER get you where you want to go.

The exact setting of the coil in an amplifier with six tubes gets pretty critical.

The reason is the built-in capacitor found under the plate cap of each tube. The more tubes you put in parallel, the bigger this accidental capacitor becomes. If each tube has on 15 pf to ground on that plate cap, six of them becomes the equivalent of a 90pf capacitor. Parallel capacitors add in value.

In this circuit, that capacitor is directly in parallel with the front-panel Plate Tune control. This means that when the plates are farthest apart, and the control is set to minimum, you still have a big capacitor in the circuit. The coil has to be shrunk down below what a normal design would call the optimum inductance value. Shrinking the coil so that it tunes 27 MHz makes its exact inductance value way too critical.

Simple rule to get this sorted out. If the capacitor is maxed, with the plates all the way meshed, you need MORE. A maxed-out setting means you don't have enough.

Same deal when the plates are all the way apart. You have too much.

Doesn't sound helpful. You can't make the capacitor's value smaller than the minimum setting.

What you CAN reduce (or increase) is the coil. Since the circuit's minimum capacitance is determined by all those plate caps in parallel, you will always have more than the optimum capacitance in the circuit. That makes the coil's inductance setting way too critical.

Not enough capacitance (maxed out), needs more coil.

Too much capacitance (plates all the way apart), too much coil.

The 'squeeze and stretch' method is the best place to start. You'll find that it's like the artillery officer trying to get the elevation of the barrel right to hit the target. The spotter says the last shot was long, so you raise the barrel. Next shot is short. So you lower the barrel half as much as you raised it. Spotter says you overshot. So now you raise the barrel, but only half as much as you lowered it.

It's called "bracketing" the target. Sooner or later you'll zero in on it.

Stretch the coil, and now the plates on the Tune control are all the way meshed. Squeeze it and now they are at the other extreme, all the way apart. Stretch it half that much next try.

Sometimes shorting two adjacent turns is needed to reduce the coil's inductance more than stretching it can achieve. ANY TIME YOU SHORT A TURN, YOU SHOULD SQUEEZE THE REMAINING TURNS BACK TOGETHER. Same rule for removing a short between turns, but the other way around. Stretch a coil that has had a shorted turn unshorted.

Frequently results in an overshoot, with the Tune control now at full mesh. Shorting across only one-half of a turn on the coil is a valid thing to try when this happens.

Enough repetitions with the same model, and you'll get a feel for how much 'stretch' is the equivalent of shorting one whole turn of the coil.

The pic shows one tube resting against the rear of the Load control. Once this tube gets hot, the cold spot caused where the glass rests against the metal of the control will fracture the glass. ALWAYS make sure you have a gap between the tube's glass envelope and the rear surface of the Load control.

A better fix would be to move that tube socket to the rear a quarter of an inch or more. Way more work that I could justify, compared to simply leaning the tube safely away from the control.

73
 
Wow, sure wish I caught this thread earlier.

I suspect that this amplifier was built without the 'safety' choke in parallel with the Load control. This is needed to prevent a portion of the power supply's DC voltage from building up across the plates of the Load control. The amplifier's RF voltage alone should not make it arc. But a few hundred Volts DC PLUS that RF voltage will do it. D&A included that choke on some units, left it off of others. Go figure.

A RF choke with at least 22 uH should go from that control's hot terminal to ground. We usually place it alongside the antenna relay, from the center wire of the output coax where it attaches to the relay, to chassis ground on the rim of the antenna socket. The physical location is less important where it's connected. And if your amplifier has this part in it already, you may simply need a new Load control.

Any time the plates begin to arc, the surfaces of the plates become rough. A rough surface will now break down at a lower voltage than a smooth surface. Becomes a sort of downhill snowball. Pulling out a badly scorched plate or two can fix this if the damage is isolated. Only the plates on the rotor shaft can be removed without damage. The fixed plates really can't be messed with.

You REALLY have to tune it up for max modulated power to get the coil right. Simply doing this with the carrier alone will NEVER get you where you want to go.

The exact setting of the coil in an amplifier with six tubes gets pretty critical.

The reason is the built-in capacitor found under the plate cap of each tube. The more tubes you put in parallel, the bigger this accidental capacitor becomes. If each tube has on 15 pf to ground on that plate cap, six of them becomes the equivalent of a 90pf capacitor. Parallel capacitors add in value.

In this circuit, that capacitor is directly in parallel with the front-panel Plate Tune control. This means that when the plates are farthest apart, and the control is set to minimum, you still have a big capacitor in the circuit. The coil has to be shrunk down below what a normal design would call the optimum inductance value. Shrinking the coil so that it tunes 27 MHz makes its exact inductance value way too critical.

Simple rule to get this sorted out. If the capacitor is maxed, with the plates all the way meshed, you need MORE. A maxed-out setting means you don't have enough.

Same deal when the plates are all the way apart. You have too much.

Doesn't sound helpful. You can't make the capacitor's value smaller than the minimum setting.

What you CAN reduce (or increase) is the coil. Since the circuit's minimum capacitance is determined by all those plate caps in parallel, you will always have more than the optimum capacitance in the circuit. That makes the coil's inductance setting way too critical.

Not enough capacitance (maxed out), needs more coil.

Too much capacitance (plates all the way apart), too much coil.

The 'squeeze and stretch' method is the best place to start. You'll find that it's like the artillery officer trying to get the elevation of the barrel right to hit the target. The spotter says the last shot was long, so you raise the barrel. Next shot is short. So you lower the barrel half as much as you raised it. Spotter says you overshot. So now you raise the barrel, but only half as much as you lowered it.

It's called "bracketing" the target. Sooner or later you'll zero in on it.

Stretch the coil, and now the plates on the Tune control are all the way meshed. Squeeze it and now they are at the other extreme, all the way apart. Stretch it half that much next try.

Sometimes shorting two adjacent turns is needed to reduce the coil's inductance more than stretching it can achieve. ANY TIME YOU SHORT A TURN, YOU SHOULD SQUEEZE THE REMAINING TURNS BACK TOGETHER. Same rule for removing a short between turns, but the other way around. Stretch a coil that has had a shorted turn unshorted.

Frequently results in an overshoot, with the Tune control now at full mesh. Shorting across only one-half of a turn on the coil is a valid thing to try when this happens.

Enough repetitions with the same model, and you'll get a feel for how much 'stretch' is the equivalent of shorting one whole turn of the coil.

The pic shows one tube resting against the rear of the Load control. Once this tube gets hot, the cold spot caused where the glass rests against the metal of the control will fracture the glass. ALWAYS make sure you have a gap between the tube's glass envelope and the rear surface of the Load control.

A better fix would be to move that tube socket to the rear a quarter of an inch or more. Way more work that I could justify, compared to simply leaning the tube safely away from the control.

73
The supposed arc I wrote of turned out to be a tube. It turned out to be one of the replacement tubes flashed over. This amp never arced or emitted any type of flash what so ever until I retubed it.
This "arc/flash" only happened once and since replacing the original d&a 6lq6's it hasn't happened again.
If you go back to the op and check out each page you'll see detailed pictures of the tube and underside of the amp.
I'd repost them for you but unfortunately I deleted them thinking I'd never need them again.
I would've been happy to repost them.
Much of your information is beyond my knowledge but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to know if this choke you mention is there or not and at the same time learn.
I've a few fourm members with the knowledge it takes to correct the minimal capacitance I'm getting with the tune capacitor.
I actually spread the coil and wallah got it to mesh.
Unfortunately I thought it could've meshed a bit more for maximum capacitance but after spreading the coil wider it went back to minimum mesh/capacitance.
I'll be getting back to it towards the end of the week.
I hope the members weigh in but as of now I'm going to stick with the advice I've been getting.
As far as the tube/socket having to be moved I believe your advice comes from the fact I reported an arc.
That never happened. I just reported what I saw as an arc.
Thanks for the read and please continue to weigh in.
Check out my postings and pictures at the end of the week.
I believe I'm on the right track and this capacitor un meshed issue will be corrected
Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate your time and intrest in helping. 73 ps. Sorry nomads. I just noticed it was you who replied with that information. Now that I know it's you I'll wait to see who throws their 2 cents in. I know when it comes to d&a's your the go to guy. Thanks again.
 
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The safety choke is a good thing to have but unfortunately most CB amps don't have one. If the plate blocking cap were to fail it would short the HV to ground and pop a fuse or glitch resistor.

If the plate blocking cap failed and you are using a DC grounded antenna like most base antennas are the fuse would have blown, a breaker would have tripped or something would have burst into flames to get your attention.
 
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Stretch the coil, and now the plates on the Tune control are all the way meshed. Squeeze it and now they are at the other extreme, all the way apart. Stretch it half that much next try.

3purjo1.jpeg
 
Hope these are the pics you're speaking of Sonar. Pretty sure they are. Sorry if not. But here are the ones I copied and will repost here to give nomadradio some more info or the pics you had. Again, hope they are the correct ones and have a good one man! Hopefully all is well.
73 and God Bless.
Sean
 

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Hope these are the pics you're speaking of Sonar. Pretty sure they are. Sorry if not. But here are the ones I copied and will repost here to give nomadradio some more info or the pics you had. Again, hope they are the correct ones and have a good one man! Hopefully all is well.
73 and God Bless.
Sean
Yes those are the pictures of my amp. The first and second were taken with the replacement tubes and the third is as it is currently (original d&a's back in there).
You can see that the original d&a's in the third pic are visually much better looking.
I'm assuming that choke should be located on the top tube side of the amp.
After pulling up some photos of the type of choke mentioned by Nomads I don't think it has one.
On the other hand the bottom side of the amp has something similar looking to the chokes I pulled up on the web. I wonder if nomadd was referring the choke being underneath (on the inside of the amp?) Thanks. Much appreciated. 73
 
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No worries, was just re-posting the pics for nomadradio to see. And anyone else interested. You keep up the hard work Sonar. You will not only learn some things in the process, but also most likely gain some respect as well for getting your learn on!!! Again, keep at it, and keep up the good work man. And like I always say, BE SAFE!! Especially in that amp. Know you know this. Just gotta remind though. (y):)
73 and God Bless
Sean
 

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